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This program is about unsolved mysteries.

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Whenever possible, the actual family members and police

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officials have participated in recreating the events.

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What you are about to see is not a news broadcast.

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It's known as the Girdon Light.

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For more than 60 years, the same eerie, luminous apparition

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has been described by hundreds of eyewitnesses.

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Is it some of the stories that have been told

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or is it as many say, the restless ghost

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of a long dead railroad man doomed to wander the tracks

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for eternity?

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This man, Stuart Heaton, was convicted

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of murdering a 16-year-old girl largely on the strength

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of DNA test results.

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But all along, Heaton has claimed that he is innocent,

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that the DNA tests were flawed, and some prominent

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scientific experts agree with him.

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Call them the real-life Thelma and Louise,

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on the road and on the run.

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A middle-class wife and mother and her best friend,

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who allegedly thrilled in seducing, terrorizing,

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and then robbing men, they met through the personals.

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Also tonight, a heartwarming reunion

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brought about by your cause.

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Join me for another edition of Unsolved Mysteries.

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Welcome to Girdon, Arkansas, population 2700,

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a town in the United States of America.

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The city of Girdon is the most beautiful city

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in the world, and it is the most beautiful city

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in the world.

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It is the city of Girdon, Arkansas,

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and it is the city of Girdon, Arkansas,

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and it is the city of Girdon, Arkansas,

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Welcome to Girdon, Arkansas, population 2700,

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a typical small town.

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Apparently no different from hundreds of other communities

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that dot the railroad between St. Louis and Dallas.

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But as darkness descends, an air of expectancy

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settles over Girdon.

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Most nights, the locals anticipate the arrival

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of their very own Unsolved Mystery.

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For decades, on the tracks just outside of town,

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an eerie unexplained light of unknown origin

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has been magically appearing.

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This time lapse photograph was taken in November

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by an Unsolved Mysteries photographer.

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It is apparently the first time that the strange phenomenon

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known locally as the Girdon Light has been captured on film.

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A few days later, the photographer returned to the railroad tracks.

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He waited until nightfall and recorded this mysterious light

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on videotape.

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This is an enlargement of the image,

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the same image seen by hundreds of eyewitnesses

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over the years.

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I'd say that I've seen it where I couldn't write it off

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as being anything else, probably 20, 25 times, at least.

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And I'm a very skeptical person.

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Over the years, I have personally seen it hundreds of times

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with my father and my family.

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I've seen the light at least 60 or 70 times.

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And of course, I've seen it more than ever.

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I've seen it more than ever.

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I've seen it more than ever.

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I've seen it at least 60 or 70 times.

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And of course, usually when you see it one time in that evening,

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you can see it several times in succession.

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What is the Girdon Light?

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A natural phenomenon?

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A long-running prank?

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Or perhaps something that cannot be explained?

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Not surprisingly, that possibility

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inevitably prompts a retelling of the legend

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that goes along with the Girdon Light.

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It all began on a chilly December evening in 1931.

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Around midnight, Will McClain, a section foreman for the railroad,

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confronted one of his workers, Lewis McBride.

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That's something I need to tell you.

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I don't want to...

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It doesn't concern any of you boys.

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Now go on and clock out.

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The day before, a freight train had derailed just outside Girdon.

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McClain suspected that McBride had sabotaged a section of the track.

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It's your last night, McBride.

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It's your pay to get on out of here.

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Why?

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I think you know why.

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I need this job.

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Well, you should have thought about that

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before you pulled that crazy little stunt.

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But I have a family...

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I don't want to hear anymore about it.

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Just pick up your pay and get off the yard.

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I need this job!

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No!

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Stay out of the way!

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No!

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No!

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No!

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When McClain failed to return home,

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a search party was hastily assembled.

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They came upon a trail of blood and followed it

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along the tracks to the edge of town.

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What is that?

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It's McClain's.

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Let's look off down yonder.

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At the end of the blood trail, lay the body of Will McClain.

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By dawn, Lewis McBride had confessed to the murder.

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In February of 1932, he was executed at the State Penitentiary.

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It wasn't long before people began seeing the gird and light

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on a regular basis.

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Local law said it was the ghost of Will McClain,

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known to spend eternity walking the tracks with his ladder.

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One of the earliest sightings is one of the most memorable.

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As a train approached town,

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an elderly conductor was found on the road.

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He was a young man,

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and when he came to the train,

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an elderly conductor named John stepped onto the back of the caboose

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and was startled by what he saw.

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They say that John went out on the back platform to investigate.

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And the light was real far off and kind of faint,

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but it seemed to be traveling the same speed they were.

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And then all of a sudden it just shut up,

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and he was just like paralyzed and just hanging onto the grab bar

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and just transfixed, just staring right into the light.

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According to John, the light followed the train for more than a mile.

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Finally it veered off in the direction of the cemetery.

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Ever since, looking for the gird and light

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has become something of a local pastime.

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If you go down there with some regularity,

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you're definitely going to see it after a while.

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You may go a few days, you know,

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where you get frustrated and you don't see it,

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but with a little time and a little concentration,

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you most definitely will see the light.

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My friends and I always went down there

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with the hopes of seeing the light.

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Walking down the tracks, just in the total darkness,

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always left you with a little eerie feeling.

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I've seen it come on in a quick flash,

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and seen it fade in and then fade back out.

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Sometimes we've gotten pretty scared down there,

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seeing the light together with maybe some noises in the woods,

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and have sent us running out of there quite often.

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The descriptions of the lighter for the most part consistent.

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It seems to float one to three feet above the tracks

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and often changes colors.

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The light is rarely visible for more than ten seconds at a time.

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There are many times when I walk down the tracks by myself

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and spent several hours out there,

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and during the course of that time,

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you can be observing the light and move toward it,

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and it'll disappear and you'll turn around and it'll be behind you.

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Almost everybody has had that kind of experience

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from time to time with it.

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The local legend is if it gets behind you,

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you can't get back to your car.

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The whole town has seen it at some point in time,

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and it's not a figment of anybody's imagination.

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It does exist.

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It is there.

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What is it?

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That's the question.

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That is indeed the question.

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Is a Gordon light, as some believe,

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the ghost of Will McClain,

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or is there a rational scientific explanation?

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For years, Dr. Charles Lemming,

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a physics professor at Henderson State University,

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took his classes to Gordon in search of an answer.

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When I first went out to see the Gordon light

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and studied the area maps,

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I was pretty confident that the light

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always originated from car headlights

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on an interstate bridge a few miles away.

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The light is usually seen in this area,

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just outside Gordon.

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The highway lies to the southwest, four miles away.

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The problem with the headlight there is

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that we're sure people were going out

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before the interstate opened in 1970.

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We could find reliable accounts of people

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that went out to see the Gordon light

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and reported the Gordon light well before the interstate bridge

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that we thought was the origin of the headlights was opened.

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A second theory is that the light is in fact swamp gas,

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a spontaneous combustion of the gases

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produced when dense vegetation decomposes.

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The theory of it being swamp gas doesn't hold up to me,

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just because I've seen it on a windy night.

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So that would eliminate any sort of swamp gas out there.

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The closest theory that I've come to

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for explaining the Gordon light is the PAs of electric effect.

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And PAs of electricity is a simple phenomena

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where if you squeeze crystals such as quartz or Rochelle salt,

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you get an electric current out of them.

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Gordon sits atop an abundant deposit of quartz crystals

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in an active fault line known as the New Madrid Fault.

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Michael Klingon believes that when the plates shift,

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an electric charge is released from the crystals

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and seen above ground as the Gordon light.

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People tend to say that the light appeared

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after the murder of Will McLean.

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And looking back, that also coincides

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with a major earthquake on the New Madrid fault line.

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So that tends to support my PAs of electric theory.

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Klingon acknowledges that there is one large hole in his theory.

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He cannot explain how the charge migrates to the surface

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or why it is concentrated in a ball-like shape.

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I don't think if they came forth with a logical explanation,

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I would truly believe it.

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It is too mysterious and I don't think it can be explained.

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Do we really want to know what it is?

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Because that would take all the mystery out of it

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and all the fun.

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And I would like to see my children's children

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take their children.

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Down there, just like our parents took us down there,

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it's a perfect setting for a ghost story.

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What is the secret of the Gordon light?

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If there is a scientific explanation,

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it has certainly eluded everyone

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for the past 60 years.

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Until something better comes along,

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we're left with a legend of poor old Will McClain's ghost

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wandering the railroad tracks forevermore,

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perhaps in search of the man who killed him.

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When we return, a controversial case of Stuart Heaton

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did faulty DNA evidence put the wrong man in prison for murder.

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In recent months, most of us have at least heard

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of the legal debate over the use of DNA evidence

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in criminal cases.

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Many experts believe DNA can identify a suspect

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as reliably as a fingerprint.

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Others strongly disagree.

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Tonight, that debate has a special resonance

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for a young man named Stuart Heaton.

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He is serving a life sentence for murder,

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even though many believe there is compelling evidence

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that another man committed the crime.

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Stuart insists that he is innocent,

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and the crucial DNA evidence, which some say is deeply flawed,

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helped put him behind bars.

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Ramsey, Illinois, in the South Central part of the state

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is a peaceful rural community,

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but on July 23rd, 1991, a brutal murder shocked its citizens.

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16-year-old Crystal Knab, a high school sophomore,

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had been stabbed 81 times in the living room

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of a family's trailer.

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Brian, what do you got there?

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I think I have your murder weapon.

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Looks like a pair of sewing scissors.

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I'll tell you, the person who did this

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can't stab somebody that many times without getting cuts

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on your hands.

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Look for somebody with cuts either on the outside

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or on their fingers or on their palm.

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I wonder if you happen to see anything suspicious.

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Several neighbors told police they had noticed

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a white pickup truck, most probably a Dodge,

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parked outside the Knab's trailer earlier that day,

262
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,680
from around 10 a.m. to 3 p.m.

263
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,680
Looks like a Dodge pickup truck.

264
00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:58,680
Do you know anybody that has a truck like that?

265
00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,680
Next, the police talked with Crystal's brother, Curtis Knab.

266
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,680
A friend of mine, I haven't seen him

267
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,680
for like two or three years, though.

268
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:07,680
Stuart Heaton.

269
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,680
Stuart Heaton, do you ever know where this Stuart Heaton lives?

270
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,680
He used to live about three miles up the road.

271
00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:13,680
Uh-huh.

272
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,680
Is he married?

273
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:16,680
I don't know.

274
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,680
OK, you haven't seen him in that long, though, two or three years?

275
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:19,680
It's been at least two or three years.

276
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:20,680
OK.

277
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,680
Police located Stuart Heaton in nearby Bluff City, Illinois,

278
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,680
where he worked as a carpenter and roofer.

279
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,680
He did, in fact, own a white Dodge pickup

280
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,680
and had married two years earlier, several months

281
00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:36,680
after he lost touch with Curtis Knab.

282
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:38,680
Mr. Heaton, if you'd step out on the porch just for a second.

283
00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:39,680
What do you want to ask me?

284
00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,680
Mr. Heaton, would you put your hands behind your back?

285
00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:42,680
What for?

286
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:43,680
What are you doing?

287
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:44,680
Just want to ask you a couple of questions.

288
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:45,680
What is going on here?

289
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:46,680
What about?

290
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:47,680
I haven't done anything wrong.

291
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:48,680
We're just going to take you down to the station

292
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:49,680
and ask you a few questions.

293
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:50,680
That's all.

294
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:51,680
Stuart.

295
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:52,680
Yeah, Karen.

296
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:53,680
Karen, call my mom.

297
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:55,680
Where are they taking you?

298
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:56,680
The police station.

299
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:57,680
They're taking you to the station.

300
00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:58,680
They're going to ask you a few questions.

301
00:15:58,680 --> 00:15:59,680
That's all, sir.

302
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:00,680
Watch for your head.

303
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:01,680
Where'd you get these cuts on your hands, Stuart?

304
00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:02,680
And flashing.

305
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:03,680
I'm laying a roof.

306
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:04,680
You see them on the spank in your hands

307
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:05,680
when you're working construction.

308
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:06,680
Nice.

309
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:07,680
Oh, real stealth on me, OK, Stuart?

310
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,680
See, both on the outer and on the palms, too.

311
00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:12,680
What about this one on your forehead?

312
00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:13,680
Did you, uh...

313
00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:14,680
It's not a carol.

314
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:15,680
It's a pimple.

315
00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:16,680
Take a shot of that, Tom.

316
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:17,680
Can I put my hands down now?

317
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:18,680
Just to put him down, Stuart.

318
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:19,680
Just hold real stealth.

319
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:21,680
We've got to know a little bit about what you did today.

320
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:23,680
What was your day like when you woke up?

321
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:24,680
Where'd you go?

322
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:25,680
I left my house at nine.

323
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:26,680
I am...

324
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:28,680
I gave an estimate for a roofing job.

325
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,680
Where'd you give the estimate, Stuart?

326
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:31,680
Stuart.

327
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:32,680
Look, why am I answering these questions?

328
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:33,680
I haven't done anything wrong.

329
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:34,680
What are you doing?

330
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,680
I don't know why he's doing anything wrong.

331
00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,680
I do crime scene technicians came back and told me

332
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:40,680
this guy has the cuts.

333
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,680
This is our man.

334
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:44,680
From the beginning.

335
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,680
And for a while, though, that was all we had.

336
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,680
Connecting him to the crime scene were the cuts.

337
00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,680
There was just too big of a coincidence for them to say that

338
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,680
the guy we're looking for is going to have this,

339
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:59,680
and I suspect they picked up Amelia had exactly what they said we'd find.

340
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,680
I know for a fact that I'm innocent.

341
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:08,680
Nobody else may know for a fact, but I know for a fact.

342
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,680
If they were half the investigator,

343
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,680
that he would lead the public to believe,

344
00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:23,680
then he would have checked and found out that I'll always have cuts on my hand.

345
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:25,680
You know, there wasn't nothing abnormal.

346
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,680
A carpenter without cuts on his hands is not a carpenter.

347
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,680
He's an observer, and I'm a carpenter.

348
00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,680
We were told that he had been picked up.

349
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:41,680
A Stuart Heaton had been picked up for her murder.

350
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,680
And afterwards, we learned that there was a possibility

351
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,680
because he had cuts on his hands, his forehead.

352
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:55,680
He had a mark on his leg, and they started doing some investigation,

353
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,680
and people had seen his truck.

354
00:17:58,680 --> 00:17:59,680
Steep inside.

355
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,680
Stuart Heaton was indicted on September 11, 1991.

356
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,680
He voluntarily waved his right to a speedy trial.

357
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:08,680
After a search warrant was obtained,

358
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:14,680
police took a blood sample from Stuart for DNA testing.

359
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,680
An autopsy had been performed on Crystal Nab.

360
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,680
She was three months pregnant and a trace of dried yellow material

361
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,680
which contained semen was found on her pubic hair.

362
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,680
Crystal's boyfriend had been eliminated as a suspect.

363
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,680
The authorities wanted to find out if the semen matched

364
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,680
Stuart Heaton's DNA.

365
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,680
For more than four months, Stuart languished in jail,

366
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,680
awaiting the DNA test results, which he felt would exonerate

367
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,680
him once and for all.

368
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:43,680
Beaton?

369
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:44,680
Yes, sir.

370
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:45,680
You got a delivery.

371
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:46,680
Thank you.

372
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:48,680
However, when his lawyer forwarded the test results,

373
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,680
they were not what Stuart Heaton had hoped for.

374
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,680
There was a chance the Stuart's DNA did match the semen sample

375
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,680
found on Crystal's body.

376
00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:00,680
In spite of this, Stuart remained optimistic.

377
00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,680
I didn't know as much about DNA and genetic testing then

378
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,680
as I do now, but when I read that, I looked at that

379
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,680
and I hung under that and I said, there's only a chance.

380
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,680
You know, this test isn't exact.

381
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,680
They can't say, oh, it matches.

382
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:20,680
I mean, they said there was a chance in my mind, reasonable doubt.

383
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:21,680
I had read all that.

384
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,680
I knew there was no way.

385
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,680
And when I looked at it, I thought, uh-uh, it's not him.

386
00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:32,680
Besides all the other forensic evidence, they had 25 pages of

387
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,680
hair, skin, tissue, blood, fingerprints, and not a one

388
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:37,680
was Stuart's.

389
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,680
You couldn't be.

390
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,680
It's an impossibility to be in a place from 10 in the morning

391
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,680
to 3 in the afternoon and not leave something.

392
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,680
And there's nobody smart enough to clean up theirs, just theirs

393
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,680
and leave everybody else's.

394
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:53,680
It's impossible.

395
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:55,680
It can't be done.

396
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,680
The Dodge pickup and the cuts on Stuart's hands

397
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,680
notwithstanding, he and his family were confident going

398
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,680
into the trial, but they would be sorely disappointed.

399
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,680
Curtis Knab, Crystal's brother, gave damaging testimony.

400
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,680
He claimed that one night between two and three years earlier,

401
00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,680
he'd found Stuart in the Knab's trailer with his older sister

402
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:16,680
Melody.

403
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,680
Now, when you say he was talking to your sister,

404
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,680
where was he located in the trailer at that time?

405
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:22,680
In the bedroom?

406
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,680
And where was your sister?

407
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:25,680
In the bedroom?

408
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,680
Of course, his testimony was completely different from his

409
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:29,680
mom's on that.

410
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:36,680
He said he answered the door and that I came in.

411
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,680
He asked me to leave and all this and that.

412
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:45,680
I think even at one point he said that he woke up and I was there.

413
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,680
But that night when I stopped by, his mom answered the door.

414
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:50,680
I asked for Curtis.

415
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,680
She wouldn't got Curtis.

416
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,680
And we sat down at the kitchen table and drank a couple of beers

417
00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:58,680
and talked.

418
00:20:58,680 --> 00:20:59,680
They asked me three times.

419
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,680
Stuart's wife was called by the prosecution as a hostile witness,

420
00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:04,680
as was his mother.

421
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,680
Their testimony indicated that Stuart might have changed clothes

422
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,680
on the day of the murder.

423
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,680
I can tell you that in the morning he had a t-shirt on.

424
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,680
But as far as pants and stuff, it had to say sweat pants

425
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,680
because he couldn't fit in his jeans.

426
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,680
Why all of a sudden now do you just say sweat pants?

427
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:21,680
Because I.

428
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,680
The prosecution theorized that Stuart had

429
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,680
hidden a pair of blue jeans, bloody during the murder

430
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:27,680
of Crystal Nab.

431
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:28,680
No further questions, Your Honor.

432
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,680
Two witnesses, one woman and one man,

433
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,680
took the stand to establish an alibi for Stuart between 10

434
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,680
a.m. and 3 p.m. on the day of the murder.

435
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,680
But the prosecutor shot holes in their testimony.

436
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,680
Against his family's advice, Stuart decided not to testify

437
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,680
on his own behalf.

438
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,680
He says his court appointed lawyer had not prepared him

439
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,680
to take the stand.

440
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,680
Stuart also says his religion teaches that faith must be put

441
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,680
in God rather than on any individual, including oneself.

442
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,680
With regard to the semen samples,

443
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:07,680
as the capstone of the prosecution's case,

444
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,680
an expert witness testified that there was a probability

445
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,680
that Stuart Heaton's DNA matched the semen sample.

446
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:19,680
The DNA profile found in this case that matches the DNA

447
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:24,680
profile of Mr. Heaton would be expected to be found once out

448
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:32,680
of every 52,600 non-related Caucasians tested.

449
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,680
Those odds, relative to other cases where DNA has been used

450
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,680
as evidence, are not in fact very impressive.

451
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,680
The odds needed before many experts feel comfortable are more

452
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,680
in the neighborhood of a million to one.

453
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,680
Nevertheless, the jury found the prosecution's expert

454
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,680
convincing.

455
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,680
The jury has returned two signed verdicts.

456
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,680
First signed verdict, we, the jury, find the defendant,

457
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,680
Stuart Heaton, guilty of first degree murder, cap one.

458
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,680
I was expecting a not guilty verdict.

459
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,680
And after I left the courtroom, I got across to the county jail

460
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,680
in there with family and friends.

461
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,680
And at that point I cried.

462
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,680
He'll onto my wife and I cried.

463
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:20,680
And we decided we'd go on and keep fighting it.

464
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,680
I don't quit.

465
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,680
I feel for the family that lost their child.

466
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,680
I am not that kind of person.

467
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,680
I know.

468
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,680
I know what it is to lose a child.

469
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,680
And they had to hurt bad.

470
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,680
But the worst thing that could happen was put the wrong man

471
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,680
in prison for it.

472
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,680
Stuart Heaton was sentenced to life in prison at the Menard

473
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,680
Correctional Center in Chester, Illinois.

474
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:55,680
The judge ruled that Stuart would never be eligible for parole.

475
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,680
I am convinced that the DNA evidence in this case

476
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,680
was the lynchpin of the prosecution's case.

477
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:06,680
That without it, the prosecution had a weak circumstantial case.

478
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:12,680
Jurors were wowed by the scientific evidence of 52,000 to one odds

479
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:13,680
against Stuart Heaton.

480
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,680
And that did it.

481
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,680
In the end of the day, a weak case was made a strong one

482
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,680
based on this evidence that I believe is phony evidence.

483
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,680
David Protas is an investigative journalist and professor

484
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,680
at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois.

485
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,680
His research has led him to conclude that the real criminal

486
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,680
is still at large and the Stuart Heaton was railroaded.

487
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,680
If he hadn't owned a white truck, he wouldn't have even been

488
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,680
a suspect in this case.

489
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,680
I did a search through Department of Motor Vehicle Records

490
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,680
for the state of Illinois that found that in Fayette County alone,

491
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,680
there were more than 100 white trucks that were similar to the kind

492
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,680
that Stuart Heaton drove.

493
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,680
And in fact, in narrowing that search down,

494
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,680
I identified 12 white-dodged Dakotas, including Stuart Heaton's.

495
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,680
One of those dodged Dakotas belonged to a man with a lengthy

496
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,680
criminal history who knew the murder victim, Crystal Knapp.

497
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,680
Could the DNA sample found on Crystal Knapp's body

498
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,680
belong to someone other than Stuart Heaton?

499
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,680
According to the statistical method used in Stuart's trial,

500
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,680
there are more than 4,800 people in the United States

501
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,680
whose DNA would have matched the sample.

502
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,680
And when a new statistical method widely used today is applied,

503
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:30,680
that number rises from 4,800 to around 48,000.

504
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,680
There's no dispute that DNA evidence to exclude somebody

505
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,680
is generally accepted.

506
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,680
If we look just at one place on a gene and they don't match,

507
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,680
then we know that those people don't match.

508
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,680
The problem is when you try to include people.

509
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,680
We can prove, for example, that somebody isn't the father of a child

510
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:54,680
by DNA tests, and we can prove that to 100% scientific acceptability.

511
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,680
But when we try to prove who is the father, who is the murderer,

512
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,680
that's where we run into difficulties.

513
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,680
Bob Byman and his associate, Shelly Malinowski,

514
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,680
have taken on the Stuart Heaton case pro bono for no fee.

515
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,680
They believe not only the Stuart is innocent,

516
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,680
but the Dr. Robert Allen, the DNA expert for the prosecution,

517
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:19,680
used a controversial method of calculating the odds against Stuart.

518
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,680
Two years after he testified in the Stuart Heaton case,

519
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,680
Robert Allen published an article with several other renowned scientists

520
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,680
that rejected the statistical assumptions that he himself had used

521
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,680
in the Stuart Heaton evidence.

522
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,680
And I think that the main reason that he was convicted was that

523
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,680
the jurors were completely overwhelmed by the complexity of the DNA evidence,

524
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:46,680
and they saw it as infallible, when in fact it's not.

525
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,680
To across the board deny the use of DNA evidence because it's low,

526
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,680
I believe it is not fair.

527
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,680
I think that it should in fact be admissible,

528
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,680
and here that's what a jury is for as a trier of the fact,

529
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,680
let them determine whether the odds are low in relation to everything else

530
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,680
and all the other evidence in the case, or whether they're significant.

531
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,680
This probe here represents the...

532
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,680
The single most important issue in the DNA testimony of Stuart Heaton's trial

533
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,680
was interpretation of the evidence.

534
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:22,680
This is an autoradiogram, or autorad, of DNA taken from the murder victim Crystal NAB.

535
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,680
The two distinct bands represent DNA from a region in which individuals

536
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,680
are very likely to be different genetically.

537
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:36,680
Jux deposed another DNA sample taken from a different area on Crystal NAB's body,

538
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,680
and the two bands also show up clearly, a perfect match,

539
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,680
because both samples come from the same person.

540
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,680
The trial boiled down to a debate between two expert witnesses

541
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,680
over whether bands were present in the semen sample found on Crystal NAB's body,

542
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:59,680
and if they were, did they match the bands at Stuart Heaton's DNA profile?

543
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:05,680
This autorad compares Stuart Heaton's DNA with DNA from the semen sample.

544
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,680
The small pinpoint dots on the left borders marked the places where Dr. Allen said

545
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,680
he saw bands which link Stuart Heaton to the semen.

546
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,680
Based upon your examination of the autoradiographs,

547
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:23,680
the defense expert, Dr. Gary Littman, said he was unable to detect those critical bands.

548
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,680
As I said, there's no band. There simply is no band there.

549
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:32,680
The sample itself was old, crusty material that was minute in quantity.

550
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,680
It probably did not provide an adequate basis for even conducting a DNA test,

551
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,680
and certainly not the type of DNA test that was done here.

552
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,680
We unearthed a letter in which prior to his reaching conclusions,

553
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:54,680
Dr. Robert Allen said that he hoped, he hoped, that the DNA test would end up implicating Stuart Heaton.

554
00:28:54,680 --> 00:29:01,680
Now that is scientific subjectivity that should disqualify him as an expert in this case.

555
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:06,680
I'm certain that Dr. Allen did the best that he could with what was available to him,

556
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,680
but that material simply wasn't in the best condition,

557
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,680
and it didn't lead then to very clear cut results.

558
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:20,680
There was a lot of smudges. It's difficult to say unambiguously that a band is present and a band is not present.

559
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:26,680
Dr. Dan Crane has co-authored articles on DNA testing with Dr. Robert Allen.

560
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:32,680
Yet in the case of Stuart Heaton, Dr. Crane disputes the conclusions of his colleague.

561
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:38,680
Based on the DNA evidence alone, I would feel very uncomfortable sending a man to prison

562
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,680
on that evidence alone.

563
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,680
Now there may well have been other compelling evidence of which I'm not aware,

564
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:50,680
but the DNA evidence by itself certainly would leave a large area of doubt in my mind

565
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:55,680
as to whether or not that he was in fact the person who was at that crime scene.

566
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,680
I mean it wasn't just DNA that convicted him.

567
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:03,680
It was people that saw him, saw the truck, and people that testified to, you know,

568
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:09,680
where they saw him at, the times, and I mean people that saw the truck at the home.

569
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,680
That's what I think helped convict him, that plus the DNA.

570
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,680
There's no doubt in my mind, no doubt whatsoever that he killed her.

571
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,680
He killed her in an extremely vicious, sick manner.

572
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,680
He's extremely dangerous. He has to be locked up.

573
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,680
If he is released, I do believe that he will kill again.

574
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:32,680
He has to be locked up, and the court system worked and it worked right.

575
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,680
I did not kill Crystal Natt.

576
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,680
I don't know the girl.

577
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:48,680
I don't have any reason to have any grudge against her or her family or anything.

578
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,680
I didn't know her.

579
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:18,680
In June of 1994, we brought you the poignant story of Diane Handline of La Crescenta, California.

580
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:26,680
Since 1986, Diane has battled a rare and often fatal blood disease.

581
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,680
Diane has a relatively unusual blood disorder,

582
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,680
normally considered to be an incurable illness.

583
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:40,680
Now potentially could be cured by the utilization of a bone marrow transplantation.

584
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,680
Frought with a lot of dangers, though, and a lot of potential complications,

585
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,680
so not something to be taken lightly.

586
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:54,680
Only one person, Diane's younger sister, Marilyn, was a potential bone marrow donor.

587
00:31:54,680 --> 00:32:00,680
But Diane had no idea where to find Marilyn.

588
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,680
Hi. Hi.

589
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:09,680
The sisters have been split up in 1954 when their parents separated.

590
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,680
Marilyn went to live with her father. Diane stayed with her mother.

591
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,680
Over the next few years, contact was sporadic,

592
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:22,680
and for reasons long since forgotten, the sisters became estranged.

593
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,680
I feel I'm asking a lot of my sister to do this bone marrow for me.

594
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,680
But even if she doesn't agree to a transplant, if she doesn't say,

595
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,680
I don't want to do this, I would still like to make peace with her.

596
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:36,680
She's my sister.

597
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:43,680
When we broadcast Diane's story, a private investigator from Denver, Colorado,

598
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,680
Robin Lee, was watching.

599
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,680
She was touched by Diane's plight, but assumed we would get the clues we needed.

600
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,680
We didn't.

601
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:55,680
As luck would have it, Robin was also watching when the segment re-ran in June.

602
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,680
This time she decided to volunteer her help in tracking Marilyn down.

603
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,680
The result was one of our most unusual solves ever.

604
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,680
I contacted the show, got a little more information.

605
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,680
Started out with the sisters name.

606
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,680
Marilyn Jones was her maiden name.

607
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,680
Started with that and a date of birth, and went on from there.

608
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,680
And it took me about three days to find her, three working days,

609
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,680
if you don't count the fourth of July holiday in between.

610
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,680
And I think it's great that they're back together.

611
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:35,680
On August 13th, 1994, Marilyn and Diane met face to face for the first time in 30 years.

612
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,680
It is so good to see you.

613
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,680
Once we hugged, it was like, it hadn't been 30 years.

614
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,680
It had been, you know, just a short time.

615
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:55,680
I guess maybe that's why I feel comfortable, is because I can feel the love.

616
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,680
And when you feel that love, you feel comfortable.

617
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:00,680
You haven't changed a bit.

618
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,680
Oh, no, you haven't.

619
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,680
No, I'm just, I get cuter with age.

620
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,680
Yes, you do.

621
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,680
I think I'm still in shock.

622
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,680
You know, it's still like, I'm not here yet.

623
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,680
It's just a dream, you know.

624
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,680
But it's a great dream, and we have a lot of catching up to do,

625
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,680
and we'll be together forever now.

626
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,680
We're going to have a lot of fun together, enjoy the time we have.

627
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,680
Isn't that beautiful?

628
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:31,680
Coincidentally, the day of the reunion was Diane's 53rd birthday,

629
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,680
and Marilyn had not forgotten.

630
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,680
It's beautiful.

631
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,680
My name, it's spelled right.

632
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,680
That's a big name.

633
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,680
This is the best gift I've ever had in my whole life.

634
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:50,680
This is the best gift ever, is to have my sister, and to have my family,

635
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,680
for my birthday.

636
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,680
It'll be the best birthday I've ever had in my whole life.

637
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:58,680
We drive 60 miles to go to...

638
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:05,680
On the day of the reunion, Marilyn's fondest wish was to prove a compatible bone marrow donor for her sister.

639
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,680
Where do you drive to go to the movies?

640
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,680
To the movies, we have to go all the way to Canada, and that's it.

641
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:16,680
I want more than anything to have this work with Diane,

642
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:26,680
but even if it doesn't, we're going to take full advantage of however long we do have together.

643
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,680
We can make a week seem like an eternity.

644
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,680
The End

645
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,680
You would think they were just out for a joyride,

646
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,680
best friends without a care in the world,

647
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,680
but like everything else about Rose Turford and Carolyn Stevens,

648
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,680
looks can be deceiving.

649
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,680
To the police, these two women are nothing less than the real-life Thelma and Louise.

650
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,680
Today, Turford and Stevens are armed, dangerous, and on the run,

651
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,680
warded on multiple charges of aggravated robbery.

652
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:21,680
Carolyn?

653
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:22,680
Yeah, okay.

654
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,680
We're running a little late.

655
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:26,680
They met in 1992.

656
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,680
Both were nurses at a psychiatric hospital in Houston, Texas.

657
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,680
Eventually, Rose invited Carolyn to move in with her and her family.

658
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:39,680
By January of 1995, the two women had embarked on a vicious game.

659
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:47,680
Rose Turford was by all accounts a loving wife, devoted mother, and dedicated professional,

660
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,680
but at night, she took on a whole new persona.

661
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,680
Here we are. Got the wine, the key?

662
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:55,680
The room's right here.

663
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:56,680
Oh, good.

664
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,680
Rose began soliciting men through the person's.

665
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:00,680
Thank you.

666
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,680
Then she would lure her dates to out-of-the-way motel rooms.

667
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:13,680
A little soft music, a good bottle of wine, and the stage was set for Carolyn's entrance.

668
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,680
Sit down on the bed!

669
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,680
The Thelma and Louise bandits moved quickly and methodically.

670
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,680
Now take off your clothes.

671
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,680
I'm going to the bank.

672
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:39,680
Finally, Carolyn would be left to stand guard while Rose ran out to use a victim's bank and credit cards.

673
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:46,680
Rose and Carolyn, from the onset, wanted to be the real life Thelma and Louise.

674
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:51,680
They wanted to experience that thrill in the spontaneity.

675
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:56,680
The only thing is, I don't believe they ever considered what they were going to do to their families.

676
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:04,680
Over a three-month period, Rose and Carolyn reportedly robbed at least ten men of more than a quarter of a million dollars,

677
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,680
but eventually their luck ran out.

678
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,680
In March of 1995, Rose and Carolyn were arrested.

679
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,680
Bale was set at $250,000 each.

680
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:24,680
It seems as though prior to both Rose and Carolyn going to jail and being arrested,

681
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:31,680
they had this pack that if one got out, they both got out, or they both stayed in.

682
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:38,680
And Rose's parents were just going to get Rose out of jail.

683
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:44,680
Look, I'm sorry I have to keep calling you, but Avery is putting pressure on me.

684
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,680
In an attempt to cajole Rose's family into posting Bale for both of them,

685
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,680
Carolyn phoned Rose's parents repeatedly.

686
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:59,680
She claimed that a mysterious international private investigator named Avery was threatening Rose's children.

687
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,680
But Rose and I know what he's capable of, and we should all take him seriously.

688
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:11,680
Probably the weirdest part of this whole scenario was the man named Avery.

689
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,680
I never bought that he was real.

690
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:21,680
It was just too far-fetched.

691
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,680
Rose's family, however, believed Avery was real.

692
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,680
Even her in-laws were moved to act.

693
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,680
They put up their house and restaurant as partial collateral.

694
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:37,680
I tried to convince the parents, don't make both bonds.

695
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:45,680
And it's not often that you sit and try to speak to someone about not giving you $25,000.

696
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:51,680
But I just knew it was a problem, and I knew it wasn't going to work, and it didn't.

697
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:58,680
Sure enough, on May 22, 1995, Rose Turford and Carolyn Stevens took flight.

698
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:04,680
Left behind was a letter which alleged that they had been kidnapped by the mysterious Avery.

699
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,680
In reality, the Thelma and Louise Bandits were on the run,

700
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:16,680
leaving Rose's in-laws in danger of losing their home and business.

701
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,680
We wanted to help in any way we could.

702
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:30,680
I never once, once entered my mind that they would disappear, never.

703
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:36,680
I really hope that Rose and Carolyn, to stop and think,

704
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:44,680
they're going to basically throw really, really good, honest, hard-working people out in the streets.

705
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:50,680
And if they have to go to jail, well, that's just kind of the price you pay for making a mistake.

706
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,680
But it's a lot better to pay a price once than to pay it all your life

707
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,680
and make your kids and your family suffer for a lifetime.

708
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:40,680
Join me next time for another intriguing edition of Bones' Saw Mysteries.

709
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:05,680
Bones' Saw Mysteries